How about creating a certification instead? It would just be for fun! But one could pay a fee (per year per site) to be a “certified Textpattern” site.

Benefits of being certified includes special email newsletter with information prior to posted on the site (release notifications, upcoming features, ..), a link to the site(s) from a directory of certified sites, and a special badge for the site it self. :)

— Daniel Aleksandersen    Apr 21, 03:16 am    #

Of course a “premium certiciate” which will include some swag, and a higher fee for the first year…

— Daniel Aleksandersen    Apr 21, 03:18 am    #

What’s in a certification if anyone can pay a minor fee to achieve it?

Other than that – I go for the certificate, since the above poll options don’t make sense, since they would require additional time by the developer team, thereby not achieving the goal of more time to development of Textpattern.

Though I feel there could have been a poll option of “I don’t think paid membership is a good idea at all”… That would create more developer goodwill.

My guess is this is a Zem idea coming to fruition.

— Oliver Nielsen    Apr 22, 07:40 pm    #

Everything except the swag adds to the workload, and I’d rather have something that I knew wasn’t taking away from feature development.

Actually, the thing I want most is a release schedule and a roadmap. As a plugin developer, I’m very motivated to contribute to textpattern, but not if I can’t ever tell when the next version is coming out, or what it will contain. How about if contribution gave you some influence over the feature priority? Maybe contributing members could vote on feature priorities, in some sort of moderation system. (Maybe plugin development or patch submission could earn you ‘karma’.)

— Nathan Arthur    Apr 24, 10:44 am    #

As a normal user, i.e. non-developer… I have used Textpattern to create 2 websites and will be creating a 3rd shortly.

What textpattern needs is a library of EXAMPLES and TIPS for performing useful tasks. The question mark buttons are great while in the admin area, but they need to provide more info. Forums are nifty, but theres too much to sift through.

For instance—I’d kill for an easy way to quickly make your TXP thumbnails pop open to the full size image.

Oh, and an easier way to install themes please! =)

That would be swell!!

Tom

— Tom    Apr 27, 06:19 am    #

I think, a premium support option sounds most interesting. ( May be coupled with a turnover percentage per site project option )

Voted for plugins first, but changed my mind.

regards, marios

— marios buttner    Apr 29, 10:25 pm    #

Documentation and “Extra Content” can arguably be considered two pieces of the same thing. We need trustworhty documentation of all the tags, etc., but we also need explanations and examples of how to use and leverage Txp.

To me, knowing how it works is much more important than having access to plugins that I have no choice but to plug in blindly.

— billg    Apr 30, 11:17 am    #

I voted for docs, but I also like the idea of a certification program. I’m sure this would put extra work on the dev team, but maybe it could be done as a kind of “tier 2” or “professional” membership level that costs more.

— Adam Messinger    Apr 30, 04:06 pm    #

I’ve rethought my initial answer. I think improved or premium support option is the best, along with the addition of your site to a Textpattern pro’s networks (If you are a pro who builds Textpattern sites).

— Robin    May 1, 07:42 pm    #

Gathering references into one central location can be a bit daunting. I’d like to see comprehensive documentation, instructions and references from one reliable source that makes it easy for beginners and intermediates to launch into building a site without having to pick and gather bits of info from separate wikis, forums and the occasional blogger who takes time to create a tutorial. I’d like to see Textpattern really compete with the better known CMS solutions by allowing new potential users easy accessibility to this great system.

— Gary Horsman    May 6, 11:45 pm    #

I’d rather the resources to fork the development for this “feature” be put into the bettering of TXP as a whole and therefore benefiting EVERYONE rather that elitists.

The recent “paid” services that are popping up in the TXP dev community are starting to frighten me.

WordPress is looking better and better with each TXP “feature” update/announcement to TXP.

It’s too bad too… I love TXP. The things that I love about it are slowing getting axed though.

— Craig Erskine    May 9, 05:04 am    #

Craig,

Name one thing that has been “axed”.

— Alex    May 9, 08:04 am    #

I think this is a worrying development. TXP, like Wordpress and other projects, has always been part of an admirable Open Source attitude. This move will unavoidably divide the community into two, and it’s inevitable that more attention will be paid to the community that’s paying for it.

I think if this happens – and it looks as though it will – it will be the beginning of a very undesirable change with a negative impact on the large numbers of people who have invested lots of time in learning and using TXP, mostly because it was/is free – lets face it, if you have $$$ to spare, you can build something faster and more personalised or rather get someone to do it for you, which would be superior to standard TXP usage.

C’mon Alex….be honest. It’s certainly true that there’s currently no discernible disadvantage to this situation. But I challenge you to deny what I’ve outlined above, and what the future implications are. It’s the beginning of two different streams, where if one concerns $$$ it’s inevitable that more time and resources will be expended there or no one would sign up for it. Talented work will go there, which would otherwise go into the free community.

Maybe the ideal answer lies in greater numbers…if there were 50 or 100 developers like you, you wouldn’t individually be doing so much work – it would be spread around. Is Wordpress like that, with massive numbers? – I really don’t know. Is the TXP community relatively small? – I don’t know. But I think the implications for the future are a little worrying.

— James    May 11, 06:00 am    #

I find it strange that people keep citing Wordpress as an example of “free beer” open source development. Wordpress charges upwards of $USD 2500/contact/year for support.

James: it’s not at all clear what you’re asking me to deny. Please re-read the post: we’re asking about a possible, optional membership programme, for those who would find such a thing useful. The ideas outlined above are all quite different, so a blanket dismissal of all of them seems to stem from a preconceived notion that open source is not worth paying for.

You seem to be suggesting that open source developers are morally obliged to work without pay. Do you deny that?

— Alex    May 11, 09:36 am    #

If WP now charges for support, that’s something I wasn’t aware of.

I was referring not to current conditions, but future likelihood in relation to two different kinds of community and where future contributions will inevitably focus. Inevitably, and understandably, developers will gravitate around the $$$ community.

I’m suggesting nothing, morally or personally, in relation to what developers contribute and where they do it. There is no obligation on anyone, to do anything, it’s perfectly understandable wanting recompense for high level skills, and I’ve suggested nothing to the contrary.

What I am doing is making a more general set of observations on the future of TXP. Whether $$$ membership is optional or not is not the point; the point is – as I’ve previously said – developers will inevitably focus there in such a way that the ‘free’ community will lose out. This is obvious: if a developer builds a great plug in, and has the choice of making $$$ from it or giving it away free, what will they choose? And what would I choose? – the same.

That is the scenario we will face: the ‘free’ aspect of TXP will suffer. There’s no blame or finger pointing in that – but I think it’s accurate to say it.

— James    May 11, 08:26 pm    #

James,

It has long been the case that Textpattern developers — not just the core team, but plugin developers and site developers too — spend their time and energy on commercial projects. Most of the major new features that make their way into Textpattern come from paid custom projects. Textpattern’s most prolific users are professional web designers — most of whom rarely post on the forum.

This hypothetical membership programme won’t cause developers to gravitate towards paid work, beause they’ve already done that. It’s about offering a way to bring them back.

— Alex    May 14, 07:56 am    #

Axed:

1. Regular updates (I like how the date since the last release has been removed from the TXP site now. It’s been almost a year.)
2. Plugin support. (I used to use a section/category/title plugin to get search engine friendly urls without the id. It no longer is supported. The sad thing is it could easily be built into the default install of TXP without the need for a plugin. I’m not sure why there is so much resistance to url schemes that are supported by every other CMS).
3. Free plugins. (Alex, you are probably the most talented TXP plugin author… and I have gladly donated to the cause because of that. I don’t see why I/we need to be forced to pay for PRO plugins. When I’m forced to do something I become very resistant to it. That is the exact reason why I switched to OS X… I’m not forced to register. So Apple will get as much money as I can give.)

Now I understand the there have been major enhancements to the TXP core which has made certain old plugins obsolete and I’m very grateful for the new features. I’m just saddened that my clients sites can not benefit from them since they require section/category/title URL’s without the id numbers in them.

I’m also saddened that we have yet to see section/category/title urls and an admin facelift even though they have been asked/begged for for many, many years.

I’ll gladly wait as long as it takes so long as TXP remains free. I’m speaking up about it now because I have this feeling that these features that I’ve been patiently waiting for will become paid PRO plugins. If that’s the case then I’ll have no choice but to switch to a new CMS that offers these features for FREE… even though I really don’t want to.

Long live TXP and it’s amazing community and no offense to you or you hard work. Please do not take this in a bad way. I love TXP and all of the authors dedication to this project.

— Craig Erskine    May 16, 02:53 am    #

Craig:

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you want the Textpattern developers to work as unpaid interns to keep your clients happy.

Everyone wants improvements to Textpattern: more features, regular updates, better support, bugfixes, documentation, and more. Yet there’s this resistance to any measure that might offer a way to provide those services.

There are two ways we can maintain Textpattern. One is to have a loose group of people contributing bit by bit in their spare time, and as they work on other projects of which Textpattern forms an indirect part. This is what we have at the moment. You can see its results. Like many people, you find the situation unacceptable.

The other is to have developers whose job it is to maintain and improve Textpattern itself. This is what we are trying to achieve. To get there we have to pay people. That money has to come from somewhere.

In the meantime, if something can easily be added to Textpattern, then please send us a patch. That’s how new features get made.

You speak of “resistance to URL schemes” like we are rejecting those things. We are not. No one has yet submitted a patch for /section/category URLs. If someone does, and it’s good quality code that doesn’t break anything, I’ll check it in myself.

Regarding the Pro plugins: no one is forced to buy them. If it wasn’t for the subscription system, those plugins would never have been released. They represent about the best commercial software deal you’ll find anywhwere: $14 buys you a fully tested, high quality application, support, documentation, and the code is GPL so you can modify and copy it.

— Alex    May 16, 09:00 am    #

Alex, point taken. You are right, we are not forced to buy the PRO plugins… we just won’t get the same benefit that other CMS’s offer for free.

I’m not asking for a free CMS. I’m just upset that TXP has been touted as a free solution but slowly it’s turning out not to be true. If TXP offered all of the features that I require I would gladly pay for a license. It just so happens that all of the features that I require are offered in competing CMS’s for free so I feel that TXP could offer these as well.

I understand the situation you are in and that you need to pay for the development of TXP. I guess I would rather see paid plugins that are more add-ons rather than features that should be part of the core CMS. For example, Rob Sable was in the process of creating an ecommerce plugin that integrated TXP in to Paypal and allowed for full administration from within TXP (like he did on this site). To me, that’s worth paying for.

Sorry to take up your time on this petty matter. I tried to express my gratitude and love of TXP and it’s community but it seemed to get lost in the other negative aspects of my comment.

Again, I respect you and all of the authors work on TXP.

— Craig Erskine    May 18, 01:49 am    #

I’m off to Modx and/or Drupal.

Largely thanks to the barking defensiveness, consistently shown by Alex and Mary. What’s up with you people? Anytime anyone comes with a suggestion or a well meant complaint, a defensive approach is taken.

Why???

Everytime a non-programmer asks for a feature, Alex’ answer is somewhere along the lines of:

“Sounds like someone who’s never done it!”
or
“Submit a patch!”
or
“Sounds like you want people to starve and work for free sucka!”

I’m not a freeloader. Many of us would like to contribute, but the current development team is like a secret society, and all is not just programming. It’s also communication, strategy, usability, project management, etc.

So what can we use all your “submit a patch” crap for?

Ciao. It’s been some good years since Textpattern 1.11 back in the gamma days.

— Oliver Nielsen    May 21, 04:46 am    #

“To that end we’re considering a new, optional, paid Textpattern membership offer. For a modest yearly subscription fee, members would get access to exclusive content, features, or services of some kind.”

Sounds a bit like Expression Engine.
Makes me sad for the “good old days” of Textpattern as an exciting open source project whose leader could rally a crowd (a crowd whose goodwill was then was directed to fund that leader’s hosting company, a company whose products have little to do with Textpattern or even PHP, which then merged with another company while, over time, that leader became less and less involved as releases dragged and little Textpattern has… changed.) Bummer.

I wonder why opinion and comment here and in the forum have become somewhat sulky and bitter while (inferior) projects like Wordpress and Drupal have thrived and still have fervent communities around them?

— Sven    May 21, 01:48 pm    #

@Oliver Nielsen

Symphony looks like it’s headed in the right direction as well.

— Craig Erskine    May 22, 06:46 am    #

Interesting that people keep offering alternatives with paid support and modules – yet balk at the idea that Textpattern might go down that same road.

Meanwhile, as all this talk of doom and gloom rumbles on, Textpattern’s stable branch continues to have dozens of bug fixes and improvements checked in every week, the new View-Controller architecture in the Crockery branch is now operational, and we have two new active developers. Bug reports are almost always fixed promptly, and the Textplates competition 2007 is underway. The xpattern working group is producing some fine ideas and talking to the txp dev team about coordinating their efforts.

But I guess none of that counts, since we don't have a road map full of prayers or a smooth talking evangelist to whisper words of sweet reassurance to our gentle flock.

Me? I'm off to write code.

— Alex    May 22, 09:28 am    #

Again, I love TXP. It will be hard to leave and was even harder to find a better CMS.

But, maybe you should step back and think about why people are talking about leaving.

My reason is similar to Oliver’s. Some of the admin community has been very snotty towards innocent users just trying to get logical answers about TXP. The other advanced users of the community have been fantastic and helpful but I have this bitter taste in my mouth from dealing with a few of the admins.

Good luck to you and I hope you truly succeed in making TXP the best CMS for your target.

Me? I’m off to the Symphony to work on a great new beginning.

— Craig Erskine    May 23, 03:41 am    #

I have no problem with Developers trying to make money from OpenSource software but only if it’s handled in right way. This issue with TextPattern is the result of mistakes made in doing this.

This has made me change my plans from using TextPattern to using Expression Engine. Yes, Expression Engine does have licenses you pay for but the people behind it have been more honest and fair about things. I notice they’ve even got a free version of Expression Engine for non-profit use.

Of course there are plenty of other OpenSource packages for people to use.

— Peter Mount    May 26, 10:42 am    #

Peter,

In what ways have the Textpattern developers been dishonest or unfair?

What is the “right way” of making money from Textpattern?

— Alex    May 26, 11:29 am    #

Alex

I suppose I’d have to point to things like not maintaining the core of TextPattern to a level where it meets a minimum requirement where it’s still useful. Drew Mclellan covered that in his article on www.allinthehead.com (“The State of TextPattern”). Also, the stifling of debate by closing off threads in the forum.

I have no problem with Developers charging money for services and plugins that add value to an OpenSource product. But again I’d have to point to keeping the core product up to a minimum level of usefulness.

You really have to look at your business model. Of course not everybody will appreciate having to pay for certain things that add value to the core product. As I said there is nothing wrong with making money from what you do. But if you go over a certain line and neglect the core product or expect people to pay for baseline features in the form of commercial plugins then your own business will suffer from losing your client base.

It’s really a case of what people know they can get for free and if TextPattern Core remains a great product then they won’t mind paying for value added extras.

— Peter Mount    May 26, 03:31 pm    #

Peter:

Textpattern is maintained, efficiently and with a minimum of fuss. You can see complete history of changes here. There are typically 10-20 bug fixes and improvements made to the stable branch every week. And that’s not counting other projects like those I mentioned above.

Textpattern is useful. You don’t say what your “minimum requirements” are. Drew only mentions three specific features (spam prevention, tagging and OpenID), all of which are available as plugins (or, in the case of OpenID, as an experimental add-on).

Closing a forum thread that has devolved into a poo-flinging argument isn’t “stifling debate”. We don’t close constructive discussions, delete threads, ban users or prevent them from opening new threads (commercial spammers excepted).

As for the business model: it seems that merely asking people what they might be interested in paying for if they had the chance is enough to provoke predictions of doom and gloom, and unsubstantiated accusations of unfairness and lying.

Textpattern is a great product. Its developers are unpaid volunteers. The message here seems to be that, if you give something away, people will take it for granted.

— Alex    May 26, 04:30 pm    #

If Textpattern starts charging for plugins that are useful to me, then I’ll be jumping ship to ExpressionEngine without a second thought.

How about revamping the site and forums to the standard of EE’s new upgrade. It might actually introduce an influx of new users who can create these plugins (which is currently winning the poll) for free.

— Brett Munro    May 29, 08:52 am    #

The inevitable implication of “Those who pay will get Foo” is “… and those who don’t will not get Foo”.

The act of announcing paid membership explicitly sends a signal that you intend to divide the existing community, who before that point feel unified by their equal access to everything the project provides, into those who pay to join the ranks of the privileged and those who don’t.

That alone could explain much of the bitterness you’re seeing at this proposal.

— bignose    May 29, 11:30 pm    #